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headache - (09:04): good morning
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mariusbutuc - (10:04): Hi all
vmassol - (10:04): hi mariusbutuc
mariusbutuc - (10:04): Where did the XWiki  Skin Tutorial move from http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Drafts/XWikiNewSkin ?
vmassol - (10:04): it's in the dev guide
vmassol - (10:04): platform dev guide
mariusbutuc - (10:05): thanks
vmassol - (10:05): actually no
vmassol - (10:05): it's in the admin guide
vmassol - (10:05): http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/Skins
vmassol - (10:06): ouch http://enterprise.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/Features is broken
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vmassol - (10:07): fixing
mariusbutuc - (10:09): thanks vmassol
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vmassol - (10:12): silviar: I think the annotation documetation should go in the annotation application
vmassol - (10:12): (and good morning btw ;))
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vmassol - (10:14): silviar: btw I don't see any Annotation feature in the platform on the Features page
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silviar - (10:16): Good morning vmassol
silviar - (10:17): Then I should remove the annotation feature page and make an application page instead, right?
vmassol - (10:17): not quite
vmassol - (10:17): :)
vmassol - (10:17): we'll need to rethink this for the new xwiki org organization but for now the rule is:
vmassol - (10:18): platform wiki contains platform features, ie stuff that are part of the platform
vmassol - (10:18): the annotation *API* is currently part of the platform
vmassol - (10:18): howevever the annotation *Application* is not
vmassol - (10:18): the annotation *Application* is an optional application that can be installed in an existing XE (and it's also bundled by default in the default XE)
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vmassol - (10:19): hmmm
silviar - (10:19): I see; and how will that reflect in the documentation? Do I copy the same documentation from the Annotations feature to the application page? Do I make a shorter version?
vmassol - (10:19): FTM I think you could leave it as you've done
vmassol - (10:20): and jsut add a new annotation icon in the features page
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silviar - (10:20): ok
vmassol - (10:20): but we need to brainstorm about this
vmassol - (10:20): for the new xwiki org reorg
jvdrean - (10:23): silviar: ftm I've included the feature page in the application page
jvdrean - (10:23): http://code.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Applications/AnnotationsApplication
silviar - (10:24): ok
mariusbutuc is now known as silverash ([email protected]
silviar - (10:29): I've talked to Caty and she is working on the icon; once it's ready i'll link the page from the fatures page
silviar - (10:29): *features
vmassol - (10:29): ok
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vmassol - (10:29): the icon shouldn't be created
vmassol - (10:30): we must take it from the existing set
silviar - (10:30): she said she's looking in the set first
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headache - (10:34): hi silviar, I've found this resource about http://www.webstyleguide.com/wsg3/index.html
headache - (10:34): maybe could be useful
silviar - (10:36): hi headache thx!
headache - (10:36): silviar, I don't remember well but there's something that shows your navigation path
headache - (10:37): in xwiki.org homepage
headache - (10:38): i.e. if I go from homepage(H) to page A somewhere should I see H->A
headache - (10:38): where H is a link where I can turn back
headache - (10:38): it's good because it helps to memorize site structure
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silviar - (10:41): headache: if you look at the documentation page proposal you'll see breadcrumbs under the xwiki logo
silviar - (10:41): http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/XWikiOrgProposal2Documentation/OrgDocumentation.png
silviar - (10:41): :)
headache - (10:43): :D
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lucaa - (11:17): team, how can I use a multiple select dblist property with input display and the comma separator... It doesn't seem to work at all, I can edit with comma, but when I save and I try to edit again, I get it listed with |
lucaa - (11:17): ?
lucaa - (11:17): I guess it's a known bug of some sort, how can I work around it. Can I?
lucaa - (11:19): I'm using $doc.display("prop-name") to display the property in both view and inline edit mode
glerouge - (11:20): lucaa ->  I think it's buggy, the issue happened a lot with tags in the past
glerouge - (11:20): "|" somehow becomes the separator
lucaa - (11:21): | somehow overrides any separator you set. Now I'm gonna have to do a multiple select list, which is not as nice as a comma separated list of values in an input with suggest
lucaa - (11:21): :(
sdumitriu - (11:21): Yes, that's normal
sdumitriu - (11:21): It's done on purpose
lucaa - (11:21): aah... ok
lucaa - (11:22): workaround?
sdumitriu - (11:22): I mean, internally in the database we have to store using a well defined separator
sdumitriu - (11:22): And | ended up as the elected candidate simply because it was there in most cases
glerouge - (11:22): lucaa -> there probably is a workaround, the thing you want to do is done for tags for instance
lucaa - (11:23): ok, I understand this, but there is the field in the class editor saying "join separator (for display)"
sdumitriu - (11:23): Workaround: manually replaceAll('|', ',')
sdumitriu - (11:23): Display = display view
lucaa - (11:23): btw, my prop is relational storage
sdumitriu - (11:23): Not edit
lucaa - (11:23): so it's not even stored like that in the db
sdumitriu - (11:23): Right
sdumitriu - (11:24): Well, there's this:
sdumitriu - (11:24):     private String formStringSeparator = "|";
lucaa - (11:24): so solution would be to handle it specially, for view and edit too...
sdumitriu - (11:25): Actually there's a setter for this field
sdumitriu - (11:25): But it's not in the public API
lucaa - (11:26): glerouge: not really, not exactly what's done for tags because I want to edit the existing list, not append to it
headache - (11:26): hi glerouge just for curiosity there are some videos about xwiki product or xwiki devs?
lucaa - (11:26): so I need the existing list displayed already, preferably with the right separator
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lucaa - (11:26): so sdumitriu in the end it's a bug
glerouge - (11:26): headache: not much
headache - (11:27): link :D?
glerouge - (11:27): there are some in the user guide section on xwiki.org
lucaa - (11:27): right? at least that's how it feels when I set separators to , everyplace I can and I keep getting the pipe
glerouge - (11:27): some others on the xwiki.com blog
headache - (11:27): glerouge, I'm referring to video that shows XWiki product in general
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headache - (11:27): not how to accomplish some tasks using XWiki
headache - (11:28): marketing-style
glerouge - (11:28): ok, I made one of those some time ago
glerouge - (11:30): headache : http://guillaumelerouge.com/awesome-xwiki-enterprise-19-screencast
headache - (11:32): brrr
headache - (11:32): :D
headache - (11:34): glerouge, you should do some marketing videos interviewing XWiki's users and XWiki's dev team
headache - (11:34): just to promote XWiki
headache - (11:34): and should be uploaded to youtube
glerouge - (11:34): silviar: you just won a new task
headache - (11:34): rotfl
headache - (11:34): just to show something from a real marketer as example
headache - (11:34): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng
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headache - (11:35): also tutorial style XWiki screencast
headache - (11:35): I don't know users who like read manual to accomplish task
sdumitriu - (11:35): Wow, 1.9 was a big release
glerouge - (11:36): sdumitriu: so were 2.0, 2.1 & 2.2 ;)
headache - (11:36): glerouge, i propose a planet
headache - (11:36): to aggregate all Xwiki's devs blog post
anamarias - (11:36): headache: that's a pro video, not made inhouse ;)
headache - (11:37): a planet it's something like this http://planet.haskell.org/
vmassol - (11:37): headache: yes we have that already
headache - (11:37): ops miss it
vmassol - (11:37): we just need to set it up and use it
vmassol - (11:37): it's called xwiki watch
vmassol - (11:37): we had an instance on news.myxwiki.org before
vmassol - (11:37): and I wanted to have a news.xwiki.org
vmassol - (11:38): actually it's still there: http://news.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Watch/Reader?xpage=plain
headache - (11:38): something that everyone could read
vmassol - (11:38): lucaa: what's the status with news.myxwiki.org?
vmassol - (11:38): it seems to work but the articles are old
headache - (11:39): anamarias, so we need a pro video
vmassol - (11:39): have we just disabled feed updates?
lucaa - (11:39): vmassol: does it work? I thought it was stopped at one point
lucaa - (11:39): let's check the update status
vmassol - (11:39): I thought too
headache - (11:39): it could be funny to see iasi team speaking proudly about their work in XWiki
lucaa - (11:39): actually...
headache - (11:40): people have to know about XWiki :)
vmassol - (11:40): but I agree we should reinstate news.xwiki.org lucaa, wdyt?
lucaa - (11:40): vmassol: not old
lucaa - (11:41): I just see some articles from today
vmassol - (11:41): ah hmmm
lucaa - (11:41): it was probably stopped
headache - (11:41): :|
vmassol - (11:41): ah yes just now
vmassol - (11:41): did you refresh something?
lucaa - (11:41): because, wrong enough, watch fetching starts when someone accesses Watch.Reader
lucaa - (11:41): no, it was you
vmassol - (11:41): me? :)
vmassol - (11:41): I just clicked on "check the loading status"
lucaa - (11:42): yes, you accessing Watch.Reader
vmassol - (11:42): ok
lucaa - (11:42): now the feed reader thread is started until next restart :)
headache - (11:42): ahahahah "Weni widi wiki"
headache - (11:42): :D
lucaa - (11:42): (should be a scheduler job)
lucaa - (11:42): to do this
vmassol - (11:42): lucaa: I see
lucaa - (11:42): or, like modern xwiki, should be an event listener
headache - (11:42): from Giulio Cesare's veni vidi vici :D
lucaa - (11:43): vmassol: however, I didn't even know it was started again, news.myxwiki. I'm actually surprised to see it working out of the box on a 2.3...
sdumitriu - (11:44): I've never heard anybody calling him Giulio Cesare
lucaa - (11:44): (did anyone do anything there)
vmassol - (11:44): me too :)
sdumitriu - (11:44): :)
glerouge - (11:44): I guess that's the original name
vmassol - (11:45): glad you liked my blog's name ;)
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headache - (12:05): sdumitriu, because you never heard from Italian
headache - (12:06): names shouldn't be translated
sdumitriu - (12:07): +1
headache - (12:07): because american people don't have much culture :D so they translated to feel near culture
headache - (12:08): culture from the past
headache - (12:08): now we have american culture invasion
headache - (12:08): :|
headache - (12:09): american people don't know what a bidet is :D
xenon75 - (12:10): Silly question… Is it possible to reduce the space between an header and the paragraph that follows? I am putting some (% style %) with no luck
sdumitriu - (12:11): xenon75: Yes, it should be possible, try experimenting with Firebug first
xenon75 - (12:11): btw : the original name in latin, *if I am not wrong*, was Julius Caesar (so italians translated it as well :))
xenon75 is now known as fmancinelli ([email protected]
tmortagne - (12:12): headache: italian name does not make it the original name, Giulio Cesare does not sounds very latin to me ;)
fmancinelli - (12:12): sdumitriu: ok
headache - (12:12): well italian derives from latin
headache - (12:12): so I don't see problem :D
lucaa - (12:12): guys, I can't use a setter for an object prop from velocity code?
headache - (12:13): (well a lot of languages derives from latin)
lucaa - (12:13): what am I doing wrong?
lucaa - (12:13): #set($dispose = $configObj.set("exceptionSpaces", $configObj.exceptionSpaces.replace('|', ', ')))
sdumitriu - (12:20): Well, we have more logo proposals than I expected, XWiki is popular :)
headache - (12:23): :D
headache - (12:23): it's also difficult to choose among them
anamarias - (12:24): lucaa: try calling $configObj.exceptionSpaces.replace('|', ', '))) before and using the result in .set
lucaa - (12:25): anamarias: it's ok, it's all working fine. Pb is that when I do get I still get it with | because well, it's a dblist prop and it recomposes it thus using same separator
lucaa - (12:25): otherwise setter works perfectly fine
sdumitriu - (12:26): Captcha activated on myxwiki.org, let's see if we get less spammy users
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sdumitriu - (12:31): Quick Vote: Do we want to allow customizing version comments on the space level?
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lucaa - (12:32): sdumitriu: I don't understand exactly what you mean...
sdumitriu - (12:33): The input above the save buttons, the version summary
sdumitriu - (12:34): Currently it can be customized, as in: remove it, make it mandatory, ask for it once if it's missing
sdumitriu - (12:34): But this can be set only on the wiki level
sdumitriu - (12:34): Some guy asked on the mailing list how can he disable it in a space only
sdumitriu - (12:34): And that's not possible
sdumitriu - (12:34): So, the question is: do we want to allow this on a space level?
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anamarias - (13:03): is there a tool available in velocity which checks a string has only blank characters ?
anamarias - (13:04): I used $mystring.matches('\s+') but crashed the browser every time I load the page...
anamarias - (13:05): actually no, $mystring.matches('\s*') this one
anamarias - (13:06): i'm in a {{velocity}} macro, and not inside any {{html}} macro
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lucaa - (14:14): guys did we fix this? http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Admin/ApplicationConfig
lucaa - (14:14): (it's the same exception as we had last week on webid)
lucaa - (14:14): and we coud think of documenting things that get in the default XE someplace else than the incubator...
tmortagne - (14:21): lucaa: the webid issue is fixed at least i don't know for this one but i guess too
lucaa - (14:21): it's the same issue
tmortagne - (14:21): lucaa: how do you know it's the exact same issue ? webid issue was a parsig issue with a specific content
tmortagne - (14:22): Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException doe snot indicate anything
lucaa - (14:22): well it behaves the same, it's the same exception while saving backlinks
lucaa - (14:22): login
tmortagne - (14:22): that just mean there is a parser issue
lucaa - (14:22): it feels very much like that one
lucaa - (14:23): and iirc noone upgraded myxwiki to the M1
lucaa - (14:23): did we?
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tmortagne - (14:23): lucaa: i doubt it has been upgraded
lucaa - (14:23): so chances are to be the same issue...
tmortagne - (14:45): lucaa: FYI i checked the content of http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Admin/ApplicationConfig on trunk and the parser pase it well so it looks like it's fixed
lucaa - (14:48): oh, I did that for a M1 too and it worked well
lucaa - (14:48): so it's the same issue so it's fixed
lucaa - (14:49): or not the same issue but fixed by side-effect
tmortagne - (14:49): yes probably
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (14:54): I had an interesting thought about speeding up page load. Suppose we added a module which cached (or stored on disk) the final html from a page, and if the page was viewed after X minutes it was displayed from cache (quick) then quietly reloaded to the cache (slow) it would only work for guest viewers and after another amount of time records would have to simply be expelled from the cache.
headache - (14:57): +1
sdumitriu - (14:58): CalebJamesDeLisl: We have that
CalebJamesDeLisl - (14:58): Rendering cache?
vmassol - (14:58): actually it needs to be reimplemented for 2.0 syntax
sdumitriu - (14:58): You must define a velocity variable in the context
sdumitriu - (14:58): I don't remember its name
sdumitriu - (14:59): Yes, that's only for 1.0
vmassol - (14:59): setCacheDuration() afair
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vmassol - (14:59): it's used on the news page of xwiki.org for ex
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:00): find-grepping...
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:02): Looks like it is the rendering cache.
vmassol - (15:02): you can also check the new rendering architecture page
vmassol - (15:02): there are cache ideas there but not implemented yet
vmassol - (15:03): + the cache macro which has a jira but not implemented yet
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:03): My understanding is RenderingCache does not cover the velocity templates so it will never be as good as nginx.
vmassol - (15:04): yes that's why we have created the html export
vmassol - (15:04): for this exact reason
vmassol - (15:04): :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:05): Hmm, so if we cache the html exported page then it caches velocity?
vmassol - (15:05): if you want nginx speed you export your wiki as html
vmassol - (15:05): basically 2 web sites, one for read andone for edits
vmassol - (15:05): you export every night for ex
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:06): Ouch, this is very difficult for the admin, I think they will just put nginx in front of XWiki.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:07): We have one great advantage over nginx because we can reload pages in the cache on DocumentUpdateEvent
vmassol - (15:07): yes that's the other proposals
vmassol - (15:07): sorry can't type too mcuh
vmassol - (15:07): hand is hurtinh
CalebJamesDeLisl - (15:08): Unfortunately if we want to do this right it all hangs on the xwiki-action module.
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jvelo - (15:09): Hi mflorea
mflorea - (15:09): Hi jvelo
headache - (15:09): vmassol, don't stress your hand ;)
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jvelo - (15:10): wondering if you have made changes to the portlet jar since last time we talked
mflorea - (15:10): nop, I didn't have the time
jvelo - (15:10): (I'm going to forge a new war, so if there are some improvments I can benefit from)
jvelo - (15:10): ok, no pb
jvelo - (15:11): mflorea: I just have a question left then
mflorea - (15:11): sure
jvelo - (15:11): do you think in the end the whole XWiki could be embaddable as a portet ?
jvelo - (15:11): or it's too optimistic ?
jvelo - (15:12): (whole XWiki = all features available)
mflorea - (15:12): it's optimistic. it requires a lot of work on rewriting the UI to ensure it is isolated
jvelo - (15:13): mflorea: ok, I see
mflorea - (15:13): it's doable, but requires a lot of work
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jvelo - (15:13): even functionnaly (provided we get rid of most of the skin ?)
jvelo - (15:13): ?
jvelo - (15:14): like livetables, rightsmanagement, etc.
jvelo - (15:14): would that work without too much effort ?
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jvelo - (15:16): (mflorea: )
sdumitriu - (15:16): Back with my question
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sdumitriu - (15:16): Quick Vote: Do we want to allow customizing version comments on the space level?
mflorea - (15:17): with my current approach, XWiki runs in servlet mode and I forward request to it from the portlet, so any feature should be available. Problems are on the client side, where the UI and the JavaScript code must be isolated. The UI needs to fit inside a div and not depend on the HTML body tag like now. The JavaScript code must be namespaced
mflorea - (15:17): jvelo
jvelo - (15:17): mflorea: you mean namespaces according to the portlet instance,
jvelo - (15:17): ?
mflorea - (15:17): yes
jvelo - (15:18): I see
jvelo - (15:18): well, this is if you want to support several instances
jvelo - (15:18): we are not there yet
mflorea - (15:18): but it could something generic, that does nothing when the page is loaded standalone
jvelo - (15:19): mflorea: yes I agree. Yuo can dymacilly change the namespace
jvelo - (15:19): (if you detect you are in a portlet)
mflorea - (15:23): yes. the main problem is that XWiki UI was desing thinking that we have the entire page at disposal, in order to integrate it in a portal we need to think XWiki's UI more like a widget, that can be placed anywhere, not only in a portal
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sdumitriu - (15:33): anamarias: Can you explain this?
sdumitriu - (15:33):     content = content.substr(start + this.startTag.length, end-start-this.startTag.length).strip();
sdumitriu - (15:33): Why didn't you just use substring?
sdumitriu - (15:34): https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Global_Objects/String/substring versus https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Global_Objects/String/substr
sdumitriu - (15:34): substr is not standard
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headache - (15:40): see you later
headache - (15:40): good work
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anamarias - (16:01): sdumitriu: I didn't realize there are 2 of them, I figured there's one that does substring, and went with the first one I found
anamarias - (16:01): I'll change it
sdumitriu - (16:02): Already did
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headache - (17:34): CalebJamesDeLisl, do you know some alternatives of skype?
headache - (17:34): I got new record 72 Celsius degree with a conversation with skype
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:35): You need to cool that thing down.
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:35): If it were me I'd tear it apart and dust each part (I have done this with a laptop)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:36): Not sure how comfortable with tearing things apart you are so don't take that as a recommendation :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:36): Option 2 is blast it out with canned air (actually co2)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:37): If it's not clogged with dust but still overheating you have to find a fan and direct it to the vents on the computer.
headache - (17:38): tear it? It's not an option especially when you have a lot of plastic parts
headache - (17:39): skype alternatives?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:39): Well, by tear I mean take it apart. Laptops are much harder than desktops, it's always an adventure.
headache - (17:40): CalebJamesDeLisl, I opend my laptop twice
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:40): I don't know of any skype alternatives but 100% processor load should not be overheating the cpu.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:40): You opened it? did you take the heat sync off of the processor?
headache - (17:40): no
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:41): Those heat syncs are touchy, you have to get good contact, the paste has to be there, it's a mess.
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headache - (17:41): no I have no dangerous intentions
headache - (17:41): I prefer to call dell customer support
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:41): Do you feel hot air coming out of the vents?
headache - (17:42): yep
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:42): Good, I'd go with setting a fan next to it.
headache - (17:42): I extended warrantee some time ago
headache - (17:42): I hate fan because of noise
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:43): I have a bunch of these http://images.google.com/images?q=80mm+fan kicking around, I rip them out of old computers.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:43): You can get them at your local computer parts dump.
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headache - (17:45): mmm
headache - (17:45): maybe I have to construct a desktop computer
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:45): I have an old laptop and the fan was loud so I set one of those fans next to it and the internal fan almost never runs.
headache - (17:45): intersting
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:45): IMO: Laptops are a pain.
headache - (17:46): I agree
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:48): If you're looking at new equipment I found opteron 2350's are $150 which seems decent for quad core 2.0Ghz
headache - (17:50): I need some money first :D
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:52): I like finding stuff cheap even if I don't buy it.
headache - (17:52): I like reading reviews about tech stuff even if I don't buy it.
headache - (17:52): :D
glerouge - (17:54): I like buying stuff :)
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headache - (17:55): evolution of the species
vmassol - (17:56): evolution?
vmassol - (17:56): :)
vmassol - (17:56): regression?
headache - (17:56): :D
headache - (17:56): vmassol, well maybe I can act as glerouge if I have money
vmassol - (17:56): yeah he must be overpaid obviously
headache - (17:57): LOL
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:57): H8DAE-2-O This looks like a decent mb.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:58): To ensure system stability, a 550W (minimum)...
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:58): (that's with no hds no video card)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (17:58): probably no ram.
headache - (17:58): I think that the problem is that most corporation who sell products manipulate our minds
headache - (17:59): so things that we usually don't want to buy suddenly becomes essential in our life
headache - (17:59): for example before I don't listen music when I walked to university (15 minutes of walking)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:02): http://google.com/search?q=century+self&tbs=vid:1
CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:02): The century of the self (how they make people want)
headache - (18:03): interesting
headache - (18:03): :)
headache - (18:03): and terrifying at the same time
CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:04): Once you know it, it doesn't work so well.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:05): It's huge but worth watching.
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headache - (18:19): someone has experience with ZUI - zoomable user interface?
headache - (18:19): probably I'll realize a zui in swing for a bioinformatic project
vmassol - (18:20): btw why don't you ask them? don't they have a discussion channel?
headache - (18:21): vmassol, I ask there because in this channel there are highly skilled developer with experience
headache - (18:21): *here
vmassol - (18:21): sure but this channel shoudl be kept about xwiki
headache - (18:21): ok you're right
vmassol - (18:21): as much as possible
headache - (18:22): I'm sorry
vmassol - (18:22): np
headache - (18:22): I have to find some Swing channel in freenode :)
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:28): "shoudl be kept about xwiki" hmm, I must be the worst offender. I have been operating under the assumption that off topic is ok as long as the channel isn't being used at the time.
vmassol - (18:28): OT is ok CalebJamesDeLisl
vmassol - (18:28): you deserve the right to do lots of OT (as much as you want)
vmassol - (18:28): since you also do a lot of xwiki
vmassol - (18:28): ;)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:29): Sounds good. I can see there is a difference between ot chat and ot questions.
headache - (18:32): goodbye
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (18:32): see ya
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npm - (19:39): hmm.. so i guess #xwiki and jabber's xwiki are two different rooms...
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npm - (19:40): i was wondering why it was so quiet over there
CalebJamesDeLisl - (19:47): Yes, the day I broke down and installed jabber, the ejabberd server started crashing and now everyone is back over here.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (19:48): There is supposed to be a bridge relaying all of the messages but I seem to recall a software upgrade broke it.
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npm - (19:57): i see... btw, caleb, a long long time ago, we (EIT/Terisa, first startup i worked at) solved most of the security issues that are now getting all hyped in the security circus, a decade later: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2660.txt http://www.javvin.com/protocolHTTPS.html ... but of course the industry chose the "worse is better" solution.
npm - (19:58): same could be said for javascript, which we long railed against as a bad language and a huge security blunder
CalebJamesDeLisl - (19:59): Are you referring to something that I said at one point?
npm - (19:59): yes. dns ssl and security
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:00): Ahh yes the DNSSEC joke. It really is funny too.
npm - (20:01): and the discussion of "cross site scripting" (which some people on-list seem confused about, claiming it's not a "man in the middle attack")
npm - (20:02): (when it comes to security, i agree w/ torvalds: http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/081408-torvalds-security-circus.html )
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:02): Well I think it could be blind posting of a link which is not really (by my definition) MITM.
npm - (20:02): the "man" is the browser
npm - (20:03): and javascript, iframes, etc
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:04): I suppose. However it's nice to know that (in firefox) javascript can't look inside of cross site iframes and popups.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:08): I got a good one for ya: Company A installs DNSSEC to make their servers 'secure'. FunnyGuy B puts up a site with 100,000 img tags linking to images at nonexistant subdomains on company A's domain. User C views FunnyGuy B's site and because their ISP is hip and supports DNSSEC but their cable modem doesn't they send normal (small) DNS to their ISP who converts that to (BIG) DNSSEC and sends it to Company A who converts it
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:08): to (HUGE) DNSSEC replies.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:08): Did you get all that or did it get cut off?
npm - (20:09): got it... yeah that looks like another sploit
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:10): So userC's isp is turned into a gigantic DoS cannon against Company A's DNSSEC servers which promptly fall over.
npm - (20:10): what's the result... denial of service, or just wasted bandwidth
npm - (20:10): oh ok
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:10): And nobody has to spoof an ip address.
npm - (20:10): wow
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:10): It really is a joke.
npm - (20:11): that's almost as hopeless as teaching people how to write multithreaded java at directv
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:11): I assume you had the honor?
npm - (20:12): for 3 months of contracting/hell
npm - (20:12): i'm the guy that made their dvr go from crashing every 15 minutes to every 45 minutes!!
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:13): Ahh so they are java. It's really getting around.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:13): BTW: UserC's "hip isp" is Comcast. 10Gbit servers because they are huge. Hilarity ensues.
npm - (20:13): embedded java that's trapped at 1.4, missing most features, and also sucks.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:14): But you can use generics because they are dropped at compile right?
npm - (20:14): not even
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:15): That's too bad. Generics are cool.
npm - (20:15): the people programming at directv would have messed them up.
npm - (20:16): even better is a language that doesn't need them in the first place . (i am an old lisp programmer... Java ... even though i've been doing it for over a decade, pisses me off in every possible way)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:17): I understand Lisp is 'better', hey emacs was written in it it can't be bad.
npm - (20:18): well finally people are beginning to "get it" ... so we have groovy and clojure and scala and ...
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:18): I think that making everything a jsr223 language will make java take over.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:19): Anyway the DNSSEC ion cannon cannot be fixed. They can make the user send lots of fake data but the ISPs are still going to convert plain old DNS to DNSSEC.
npm - (20:19): what i find interesting is that most design patterns are really just a workaround to bad language features. for example the "proxy pattern" is totally idiotic -- you simply don't need it if you can pass first class functions as parameters ( http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/081408-torvalds-security-circus.html )
npm - (20:19): oops wrong link
npm - (20:20): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_pattern (note they don't have any dynamic langs for the proxy pattern -- because the proxy pattern in a dynamic lang is a one-liner that you don't even need to think about
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:22): Oh yes because of the "little known" fact that you can hold multiple references to a single object and it won't consume more memory. Correct?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:23): I see some value in proxies for security (block this function, redirect that one...)
npm - (20:26): Here's a good article on this: http://www.tiagoluchini.eu/2007/07/28/strategy-pattern-comparing-java-x-lisp/
npm - (20:26): i think i should have used strategy pattern  in my example... in fact i was probably thinking of that more than "proxy"...
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:28): they double sanitized <  it seems like there ought to be "smart" escapes which will detect already escaped stuff and skip it.
npm - (20:29): the article is good in that it shows how wasteful the entire pattern "concept" is... and the pages of code and bugs it causses...... is replaced by a simple language feature that eliminates the need for contorting yourself into a "pattern"
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:32): I get the idea that patterns are often fads like we had object oriented until people realized that everyone makes incompatible objects.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:35): Of course we still use objects but they aren't touted as the savior of programming, now it's components and later it will probably be something else.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:38): Re Javascript: I have changed my opinion on it somewhat after discovering that the whole firefox ui is written in it.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:40): It's thread handling is horrible, it's full of "surprise that's asynchronous" traps.
sdumitriu - (20:40): Javascript is great, just that it's badly used
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:41): Something I have been thinking would be nice is an api which is the same in Javascript on the client side as in velocity or groovy.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:41): So getDocument would be an ajax function.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:41): That idea.
sdumitriu - (20:44): Yes, that's a nice idea
sdumitriu - (20:45): And we're planning on doing a JS mirror API after we make a proper Java API
sdumitriu - (20:45): (model 2.0)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:45): +1
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:46): What I see as important is that we make things the same because subtle differences can be even more aggravating than major ones.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:47): How about manipulating the XDOM with script on the server side?
sdumitriu - (20:47): I think that's already possible
sdumitriu - (20:47): Since getXDOM returns a Java object
sdumitriu - (20:48): What's not possible is creating new stuff
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:48): Ahh, I thought it wasn't there yet when the script ran.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:48): If scripts run at rendering time then i suppose it is.
sdumitriu - (20:49): What I'd like is integrate Rhino, so that we can have serverside Javascript
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:49): +1
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:49): I am still not a huge fan of JS but I am a huge fan of making things the same if possible.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:50): I have thought of suggesting it myself.
sdumitriu - (20:50): JS could be a nice alternative to Velocity
sdumitriu - (20:50): It can be secure, yet it's a lot more familiar
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:50): Yes, Velocity is an analogue of bash which most people don't know.
sdumitriu - (20:51): Actually, it would be confusing, since most developers have a hard time making the difference between serverside and clientside scripting
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:52): Do you think it would be possible to make scripts which could run in either place?
sdumitriu - (20:52): So many users asked how can they get get a value from a HTML input from JS and pass it to a Velocity variable :D
sdumitriu - (20:52): Yes, but not all scripts
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:53): If it's possible then we could make an api to make it easier.
sdumitriu - (20:54): One major roadblock in having a JS clone of the API is the asynchronous aspect
sdumitriu - (20:54): You can't use getDocument() and have it returned instantly
sdumitriu - (20:54): You can, but it would block the browser
sdumitriu - (20:55): I still don't know what were people thinking when they made a whole process with all the JS in all pages
sdumitriu - (20:55): And even the UI (FF)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:55): I think you can block the script without blocking the browser with a prototype function.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:56): "made a whole process with all the JS in all pages" mmm meaning all js is one thread?
sdumitriu - (20:57): Yep
sdumitriu - (20:57): But this is changing
sdumitriu - (20:57): I don't know what browsers still do this
sdumitriu - (20:58): Chrome had different processes from the start
sdumitriu - (20:58): Firefox, IIRC, fixed this in 3.5 or 3.6
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:59): I think scheduleEvent will fork to a new thread.
sdumitriu - (20:59): link?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (20:59): It's not very authoritative :D
CalebJamesDeLisl - (21:01): torcon 2006 guy said he could break firefox with js.
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (21:12): http://www.neilmix.com/2007/02/07/threading-in-javascript-17/
CalebJamesDeLisl - (21:13): Just turned that up with google.
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CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:52): This is interesting http://cr.yp.to/qmail/qmailsec-20071101.pdf
CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:53): "'Untrusted'
CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:53): means that code in these prisons—no matter what the code
CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:53): does, no matter how badly it behaves, no matter how many
CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:53): bugs it has—cannot violate the user’s security requirements.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (22:53): "
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gvallarelli - (22:58): evening
sdumitriu - (22:58): Hi gvallarelli
sdumitriu - (22:58): So, what project are you targeting for GSoC?
sdumitriu - (22:58): Still on BioJava?
gvallarelli - (22:59): I think it's off topic and not related to XWiki
gvallarelli - (22:59): :)
sdumitriu - (22:59): OK
gvallarelli - (22:59): but you're free to ask me in pvt
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:04): gvallarelli: If you look at some of the logs you'll see I chat about just about everything on this line (especially the time when I overflowed the LargeStringProperty for the chat log) I think you are free to chat about whatever as long as it's not during work time.
gvallarelli - (23:09): CalebJamesDeLisl, I haven't much to say, I'm following some bio-related projects
gvallarelli - (23:09): today I talked with an English researcher via skype
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:09): Hows the cpu temp going?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:09):    '
gvallarelli - (23:09): and tomorrow I'll start coding some demo for a zoomable user interface
gvallarelli - (23:10): :D goes well but I have to clean it
gvallarelli - (23:10): it's 43C
gvallarelli - (23:11): I'm only surfing in the web so it's quite almost no noise
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:12): Mine's 27C but it's a very cool running pentium4.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:12): (I know ancient...)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:12): Upgrade time when I can find a decent power supply.
sdumitriu - (23:12): Big Desktop?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:13): That's what I'm looking at (it's also what I have now.)
gvallarelli - (23:14): I'm not a polemical person but I didn't want to disturb the work information flow in the afternoon
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:15): Hah, I was reading a paper on software security, I haven't seen anyone else say anything here for a while.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:16): Is anyone bothered by our topic chat?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:17): Give em a minute and assume they're not ;)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:19): Hmm, my clock number just rolled over, let's call it a minute :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:20): Anyway I'm looking at an ATX-E motherboard and it only fits in some (expensive) cases.
gvallarelli - (23:21): silvia strong worker
gvallarelli - (23:21): :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:21): The bigger problem is 1KW power supplies are either no good, or very expensive.
sdumitriu - (23:22): Why do you need 1KW?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:22): The motherboard I like supports 2 75 watt opterons, 2 video cards, 64G of ram and 6 hard disks and I don't feel like upgrading the power supply.
gvallarelli - (23:23): :O
gvallarelli - (23:23): 64G ram? CalebJamesDeLisl are you planning to go to the moon? :D
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:24): And in the mb spec they say 550W minimum power. Also I think adding more power than I use will increase stability.
sdumitriu - (23:25): Mine is as 13W usually
sdumitriu - (23:25): s/as/at
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:26): The practical limitation on ram is that there are 8 slots and I don't like spending a lot of money on multi gb ram cards.
gvallarelli - (23:26): yeah I know you're a cheaper guy :D
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:27): Sure 13 watts at idle but what happens when you decide to put the video card to breaking RSA1024 or something...
sdumitriu - (23:28): Hehe, you don't put the video card to do that, you put The Cloud
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:28): BTW: how how are you able to determine your power consumption?
sdumitriu - (23:29): powertop
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:29): Something you plug the computer in to?
sdumitriu - (23:29): Well, it works when I'm on battery
sdumitriu - (23:29): Based on ACPI outputs, it measures the difference in capacity over time
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:30): "The Cloud" sdumitriu's private botnet? :D
sdumitriu - (23:30): It's nice when I suspend the laptop for a while, and it then says that my battery will last for a couple of years
gvallarelli - (23:30): eheh
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:31): The computer I have now has a 450W PS and it's a decent one which replaced a cheap one that blew up, and the computer was off at the time.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:33): Oversized power supplies have oversized capacitors which help absorb surges in grid power.
gvallarelli - (23:34): CalebJamesDeLisl, where do you work just for curiosity?
sdumitriu - (23:35): In the woods
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:36): I do some freelancing with xwiki.com but I can afford nice equiptment because #1 I have no car to eat my money, and #2 I buy a computer every 10 years.
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:37): #3 I live at my dad's house.
gvallarelli - (23:37): how old are you?
gvallarelli - (23:37): :D
sdumitriu - (23:37): asl pls?
gvallarelli - (23:37): asl?
sdumitriu - (23:37): Ah, you're young
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:37): So I guess the correct answer is bum.
gvallarelli - (23:38): I'm 23
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:38): I'm like 22 maybe? I don't get asked much.
sdumitriu - (23:39): Ah, actually it's "asl plz"
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:39): try googling "otp"
gvallarelli - (23:40): there are a lot of meanings
gvallarelli - (23:40): out of toilet paper
gvallarelli - (23:40): one time password
sdumitriu - (23:40): :))
gvallarelli - (23:40): :D
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:40): "asl plz" in quotes.
gvallarelli - (23:41): ahahaha
gvallarelli - (23:41): age sex location?
gvallarelli - (23:41): lol
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:41): aolspeak. Popular with 12 year olds.
gvallarelli - (23:41): well I was interested in age
sdumitriu - (23:41): 10-15 years ago it was very common
gvallarelli - (23:42): :| in Italy 12 year olds play some sport
gvallarelli - (23:42): or play to videogames but they don't know they acronym
gvallarelli - (23:42): well maybe only the persons I know
gvallarelli - (23:42): :D
gvallarelli - (23:42): *these
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:43): Good for them, kids should get out of the house.
gvallarelli - (23:43): sure
gvallarelli - (23:43): CalebJamesDeLisl, congrats you know a lot of tech stuff to be a young boy :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:44): It's easy, I have no life.
sdumitriu - (23:44): http://www.amazingsuperpowers.com/comics/2009-11-09-Waste.png
gvallarelli - (23:44): :(
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:44): Hahaha, I don't drink either.
sdumitriu - (23:44): +1
sdumitriu - (23:45): Cokes are bad
gvallarelli - (23:45): :D
sdumitriu - (23:45): Well, not all cokes
sdumitriu - (23:45): Just the mass-produced ones
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:45): I'll accept that :)
gvallarelli - (23:46): sdumitriu, nightmare
sdumitriu - (23:46): There are fresh home-made ones, even organic
gvallarelli - (23:46): I don't know organic coke
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:46): Coke is a bad company anyway.
sdumitriu - (23:46): Ubuntu Cola
gvallarelli - (23:46): CalebJamesDeLisl, do you know some big corporation that is not bad?
gvallarelli - (23:46): :D
gvallarelli - (23:46): they're all bad in some ways
sdumitriu - (23:46): http://www.ubuntu-trading.com/
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:47): What company sells sugar water and never goes out of business?     and does business in Columbia.    Importing E.Coca...
gvallarelli - (23:49): CalebJamesDeLisl, do you have friends?
gvallarelli - (23:49): it's worrying that you say that you have no life
sdumitriu - (23:49): Sure, he has us
gvallarelli - (23:50): I hope you are joking
gvallarelli - (23:50): sdumitriu, well real friends not virtual ones
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:50): friends?    I still know people who I knew when I went to school but I don't socialize much.
gvallarelli - (23:50): why ?
gvallarelli - (23:51): you seem to be a nice person
gvallarelli - (23:51): you surely can have a lot of friends
gvallarelli - (23:51): when you feel sad what do you do?
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:51): Well as an example you offered me a beer and all of the trouble that lead to...
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gvallarelli - (23:51): CalebJamesDeLisl, I don't see trouble
gvallarelli - (23:52): you don't have to conform to a model
gvallarelli - (23:52): but to integrate with other persons it helps in some way
gvallarelli - (23:52): but you can have your identity :)
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:53): "feel sad" At one point I realized that to be happy at times means one must be sad at times and I chose to be more neutral.
gvallarelli - (23:53): :|
gvallarelli - (23:53): I prefer to be sad and happy instead to have a flat line
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:53): Exactly:  :|
gvallarelli - (23:53): go out
gvallarelli - (23:53): :D
gvallarelli - (23:53): there are a lot of girls
gvallarelli - (23:53): out of there
gvallarelli - (23:53): ehehehe
sdumitriu - (23:54): gvallarelli, people are different
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:54): Not out here, all we have is trees, fields and DSL (somehow).
sdumitriu - (23:54): Respect other people's personal choice in lifestyle and lifegoals
gvallarelli - (23:55): I am trying to understand
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:55): No I like hearing challenges to my way of life.
gvallarelli - (23:55): I respect other people lives
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gvallarelli - (23:55): I don't want to offend anyone
gvallarelli - (23:56): so if is a too personal question or topic
gvallarelli - (23:56): I know everyone as dark side
gvallarelli - (23:56): :D
gvallarelli - (23:57): so Caleb what I want you to say it's try to interact with people
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:57): Floyd is good stuff, too bad it isn't CC.
gvallarelli - (23:57): some people could disappoint you
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:57): Hmm, can you rephrase?
gvallarelli - (23:57): but everyone has something good to give to you
gvallarelli - (23:58): something good
sdumitriu - (23:58): Books give more
gvallarelli - (23:58): sdumitriu, ...
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:58): The electrical engineer thinks "Hmm but if you used a diod..."
gvallarelli - (23:58): well but you have to live in your life some experiences
sdumitriu - (23:59): Yes, that's what mountains are for
sdumitriu - (23:59): :)
gvallarelli - (23:59): :|
CalebJamesDeLisl - (23:59): I like going for walks, I tend to fix things while I'm out walking.
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